Assessing Party policy – the word from our local representatives

By Bev Haigh-Jones

A year ago and very early in our series of talks with Cornwall’s prospective politicians, we had a chat with Phil Hutty, who was then the Liberal Democrat PPC for North Cornwall. Since then, Phil has stood down and he has been replaced with a new candidate, Ben Maguire.

Ben kindly agreed to talk to us at a recent Zoom meeting and, as with previous guests, he has been open about his views and priorities, as well as Lib Dem party policy. You can read the full transcript of the discussion below.

Ben Maguire:

“Thanks for having me, it’s great to get the chance to connect with you all. With technology these days it’s great that we can do this over something like Zoom, especially in place like Cornwall. I was only slected three or four weeks ago and I’ve grown up my whole life in North Cornwall, but I’ve been in Wadebridge tonight knocking on doors, and I was up in our Launceston office earlier in the day and it’s brought home to me how massive the county is that we live in.

“Just a bit of background about me – I grew up in a village called Withiel, not far from Wadebridge. I went to school in Bodmin, my mum was a teacher in Bodmin and my dad was a GP in Bodmin for many years. Then I went off to university and I campaigned with Dan Rogerson, the former MP for North Cornwall. I worked with him in his Westminster Parliamentary office, while I was studying up in London. I then went on to work for another Liberal Democrat MP, Ian Swales, who was the MP in Redcar. He overturned a huge Labour majority up there.

“After that I went to the United States and I worked for a US Senator called Ed Markey, who is actually still in post – he’s the Democrat Senator for Massachusetts. I also spent some time in the Hong Kong Legislative Council, working with the pro-democracy caucus of MPs there during the umbrella protest that took place. Unfortunately, those MPs have since been expelled from the Council and some of them are in gaol awaiting trial and they have been for a few years now.

“I returned to the UK and I did my legal training with several law firms in London and most recently I’m working with a firm called Intel, the technology company that does a lot of computer and phone chips – and a lot of other things as well. I’m working as an employment solicitor in their legal team, which I have been doing for about a year and, fortunately, I’m able to work remotely, so I have been able to return to Cornwall. However, I’ve just been so disgusted and outraged and sick of what the government have been doing, ever since Brexit really, where I think lots of us just lost a lot of hope and we just went throught the despair stage. I think I have probably come through that stage now and I’m ready to fight again and hopefully win, to take back the seat in North Cornwall this time.

“In terms of my views on Europe, you can probably guess that I am very pro-Europe and I was very much against Brexit. I campaigned quite hard for the Remain campaign team, both in Cornwall and in London, as that was where I was working at the time. In fact, I was training in London at the time, so I was a student, but I think the 2019 election was quite a lesson for the Lib Dems, because we really made ourselves the party of Europe, the party of Remain and the party that was going to take us back into the EU. I think, in my view, that massively backfired. We underestimated things and we pitched it very badly, I think we alienated a lot of people and my view is that when you want something doing, or you want to reach an objective, you need to bring people with you, you can’t lecture them, you can’t alienate them, you can’t make them feel stupid and tell them they were wrong. I think we really got that quite wrong in 2019, because that was the argument that we took. I don’t think we tried to build a coalition.

“Fast-forward to 2024, we’ve got quite a different picture. I think people have had quite a number of years now to reflect on Brexit and see the results of Brexit and how it’s affecting them, or their families. Also how it’s affecting the country. Taking Intel as an example, where I work, I was talking with a very senior boardmember from the US just before Christmas and they said, “Why would we choose to invest in the UK and build a factory there, when we can go to a country in Europe and trade more easily across borders in Europe? Why would we want to pay the tariffs, or have all that extra uncertainty?” I don’t think that this just applies to this company, I think it’s typical of lots and lots of companies. It applies to UK, European and international companies looking to invest – why invest in the UK when I could go to Poland, Germany, or Italy and have all the benefits of being in the EU, rather than the UK, which is completely on its own. It’s got high tariffs, it’s not an attractive place to do business, it’s difficult to get visas for foreign workers, which lots of international companies require.

“I think the message has sunk in for a lot of people now and a lot of people have regrets. Also, lots of people who voted for that ‘Get Brexit Done’ message weren’t people who were pro-Brexit, they were just sick and tired of all the bickering, the arguments and the years of division. The Tory Party in particular sowed the seeds of the division, stirring the pot as much as they could because obviously it benefitted them massively, they got a huge majority as a result. I think people have had time to reflect now and they’ve seen the damage that’s been done to the country, and a lot more people than I expected have had the good grace to admit that they were wrong, though again, I think that these people should not be made to feel stupid.

“That also goes for my campaign against the Tories. We can’t afford to say ‘I told you so, you were an idiot for voting for them last time’, because that’s obviously not going to work, it would just alienate and divide people. You’ve got to bring people with you. I want to be a representative for everyone. I don’t want to say I will only represent some, because that isn’t how it works. You have to be a strong representative for every single person in your area and that’s why I’m standing. I truly believe that I want to help everyone and make the area better for everyone, not just for Brexit supporters, or non-Brexit supporters, or certain groups, or certain demographics – that’s definitely not why I’m standing. If I wanted to play politics, or have a professional political career, then I would stick with my existing career which I quite enjoy and feel that I am quite successful with. So that’s my motivations and my five pence worth on Europe and the journey that we have come on over the last five years and more, but I’ll open it up to you now, if you have any questions for me.”

Q&A

HF – “Ben, we are all seeing the ‘Bregret’, we come across it all the time on our stalls. What we haven’t seen yet is any movement on behalf of the Lib Dems as a national party to move away from taking it very quietly and not doing anything, and not saying the word. Is anything happening there? Are changes afoot?”

Ben Maguire – “The first thing I would say is that our manifesto hasn’t been published yet. We’ve got a sort of pre-manifesto which we are working with at the moment and that sets out at very high level our stance on things. As I’m sure you can imagine, a much closer relationship with Europe is very much a part of that, and I’m sure that will develop during the course of the manifesto as well. I think we have held off on publishing a full manifesto because, as I’m sure you can appreciate, other parties tend to steal a lot of our policies. For example, the windfall tax on energy companies was taken, I think, by both Labour and the Conservatives, and now the non-dom policy has been adopted, though it has been considerably watered down by the Chancellor. I think that there will be a lot more to say about Europe, so don’t fear, because the Lib Dems are still the party of Europe.

“The only thing I would say is, I go back to my point earlier about not building a coalition of supporters. We certainly alienated a lot of people in 2019 and what you tend to find is that a lot of people who want a closer relationship with Europe, or want to go back into the EU, are already supporting us – they’ve got the message. The danger of beating that drum again and shouting during the campaign about Europe and reopening that wound, is that we alienate people again and I’m sure that you all can appreciate that we won’t win too many seats, and we won’t have any influence in terms of our relationship with Europe, if we alienate lots of people. So, I think there’s a fine balance to tread on that front, but certainly there will be more that you will be hearing from us about Europe. Obviously, our stance is, and always has been, that we need a much closer relationship with Europe, and I think particularly the trade deals that the Tories have done have been absolutely diabolical – for our farmers and fishermen and just about everyone else. That’s just one example of many where we would look to reopen that and hope to work much, much closer with our European allies.”

CB – “I presume that I wasn’t the only Lib Dem member who, in the last day or two, had a very fulsome report from the Chief Executive, with loads of data and bar charts and stuff in. I presume that it was sent to every member, rather than just me personally, but maybe others haven’t had the chance to open your emails. I found it incredibly disappointing that within that email it was clear that the work that had been done, talking about opinion poll sampling to try and inform the party on what would be the key campaigning issues, and Europe comes way down. Less than 10% of the electorate appear to be wanting to mention Europe as anything that would actually alter their vote, and the NHS, the state of the economy, the international situation, all of those things are far higher up. Basically, one depressing message from the Chief Executive was to say – Hi guys, we know you want to campaign on certain things, but actually we are going to campaign on those things that are likely to win us votes and things that people are thinking about at the moment are not Europe-related. Very positively, though, when you ask people how they would vote now, compared to how they did vote in the referendum, there is this big shift and it’s quite clear that there would be an overwhelming vote to return, if we ever had one. But when you ask people their biggest priority, it’s way down. Now politically, how on earth do we cope with that? I would love to go out as a Lib Dem and knock on doors in the election and say if you elect – in my case it’s Colin Martin – if you elect Colin Martin, he’ll be able to campaign to get us back into Europe, but there’s no way that it’s interesting enough for the parties to say we have got to have it up there as one of the key campaigning issues. I wonder how you feel about that? I, as a member, feel pretty depressed about it. I accept the analysis provided by the Chief Executive, but I find it depressing.”

Ben Maguire –“I take all those points on board, and I do agree really. I don’t want to belittle Europe, as I think it’s very, very important, like you do, but I guess the problem we face and the problem my campaign has faced, is that we have so many desperately urgent issues that are facing people at the moment. We’ve got an NHS that is literally on its knees, I don’t think it’s going to survive another year or two of Tory government. We’ve got an economy that essentially looks like it’s in free-fall at the moment. We went into recession and the Tories are giving out tax cuts and I can’t see at all how that’s going to help us grow the economy. People can’t afford to pay their energy bills, can’t afford to put fuel in their cars, can’t put food on the table for their families. There are so many issues that are going on right now, and I’m not at all saying that Europe isn’t important, because of course it is, and it actually feeds into a lot of those issues in terms of price of food, food security and lots of other issues as well.

“I think the problem is, though, we are in danger of taking on too many issues and when you’re in a campaign like this, when the Tories are telling everyone that you’re all the same and be disengaged everyone, because we don’t want you to vote in this election, because we know you’re not going to vote for us. In other words, there is a danger, I think, in trying to take on too many battles. I don’t want to give a politician’s answer on this, but, although I’m fairly young, I have been around long enough to know that you’ve got a choice in politics. You can be a pressure group that stands on the side and champions good and important issues, or you can be quite strategic and you can get as many MPs as possible, using some of the data that the Chief Executive sent to you by email, and once you have actually got those MPs in Parliament, then you can actually make a difference. You can use your voice for change, and you can shout about Europe, and you can shout about how we need closer ties with Europe, or you can talk about one day rejoining Europe, when that’s appropriate.

“Until we have that power and those MPs, it’s very difficult to see how we do that, because unfortunately, with the media as it is in our country, we don’t tend to get much media coverage and certainly not without MPs. Even when we do have a sizable number of MPs, it’s hard, but without them it’s very, very difficult. I can understand all of your frustrations and I agree with them, but equally, sometimes when there are so many desperately urgent issues, you’ve got to be quite laser focused on your messaging and your campaigning techniques, to make sure that you actually win. I would love to win seats and to take some of these issues that we’re talking about up to Westminster, rather than just being a pressure group that doesn’t have any influence and ending up with more Tory MPs having the say on all of this.”

HH – “I completely agree with what was said by CB in the last question. I have been prodding Lib Dem Head Office for the last two years to try to get something out of them. I hear exactly what you say, and it is a fine balance, but I just think that the Greens have gone a little bit further towards it than Lib Dems have and it’s not done them any harm at all. So I just make a plea, really – don’t forget the EU. I know we are a pressure group of our own here and we have our own special interest, and I’m sure people like Mark Packer are much better strategists than I am and you understand that you can’t alienate people, but one particular thing that’s close to my heart – but also we’ve been busy on it – and that’s Erasmus. It’s a kind of low-level issue as far as Europe is concerned, but my grandson as an example, tried to get his third year in university in Europe, but it was too difficult, so he went to Australia instead. That’s madness, isn’t it?”

Ben Maguire – “We have obviously now got this ridiculous Turing Scheme that the government cooked up and it’s nothing like Erasmus that we used to have, which was wonderful. I unfortunately didn’t manage to take part in it – I wish I had when I was at university, but lots of my friends did and they had loads of benefits that came with it. Fortunately, I have been lucky enough to travel and work in various countries, but I think it’s such a golden opportunity for students to build ties, not just educationally, but also politically and diplomatically. To build those relationships across different countries and just meeting different people from countries who might have a different perspective from ours. It’s so, so valuable and we’ve lost that, really. Instead, we’ve got this half-baked Turing Scheme, which doesn’t really even come close to what we used to have, and I’ve heard from a lot of people on the doorstep recently – there was a couple in St Columb Major at the weekend, and they were saying exactly the same. Their son had been really looking forward to using the Erasmus Scheme but it just isn’t available now. He’s about to go to university next year and he just can’t do it anymore, so that’s a huge, huge loss for our young people – it was a huge benefit for them that we’ve lost, for what seems like no reason. I don’t know why we’ve done that, we’ve shot ourselves in the foot for no benefit whatsoever. We’ve just sold our young people – as we have with everyone else – down the river. As we have with our farmers, our fishermen and with our businesses as well.

“One quick word of reassurance, there are still a lot of people out there who are still passionately in favour of Europe and they want us to have closer ties, so I don’t want to give everyone the impression that I am hiding my pro-EU credentials because I am scared what I will get on the doorstep, because certainly I meet lots of people who say, “God, what a mistake that was!’ Often, it’s people who actually voted for Brexit as well, slightly depressingly, but it’s good in a way that they have changed their minds and are not too stubborn to admit it, or to tell me. Also, in terms of things like the trade deals, that “oven-ready” deal was absolute rubbish and even the most ardent Brexiters don’t disagree with that. Even the strongest Brexiters would agree that it was a terrible deal, so that is quite a good hook to talk to people about as well. If you ask, was that a good deal for you, your family and the country, nine times out of ten they will say, no, it was pretty awful.”

BH – “This follows on exactly from the last comment, actually. Obviously, you’re out there campaigning because you have mentioned a few times what you are hearing on the doorstep, so that’s great that you are already active and out there. I was just wondering, given that the Lib Dems are not making rejoining the EU one of their main focuses in their campaigning, what is there as a main focus right now? How do you open a conversation on the doorstep? What’s your core target when you are talking to people?”

Ben Maguire – “I think the main thing that people want in North Cornwall is a local MP that stands up for them again and represents them in Parliament. We currently have a Conservative MP who’s a government whip, so he’s not been able to speak in the House of Commons since 2021 and people have actually noticed that. They’ve noticed that he is completely absent from Westminster. From conversations on the doorstep, it also doesn’t seem as though anyone has seen him in a number of years, just out and about in the community.

“But in terms of issues and policies, I would say the NHS is the biggest one and that affects all ages – younger people, parents, middle-aged, but obviously it really affects older people as well, and that’s a group that we have a large number of in North Cornwall. So definitely funding for NHS in Cornwall, particularly when Treliske is in the news almost every week for being on red alert, or ranked number one or two in the country for being under the most pressure. I would say that’s really the key one, and then alongside that I would say the cost of living has been a huge one as well in Cornwall. People tell me – I can’t afford to put petrol in my car and there are no other options for me to get to work, or get my child to school. There are lots of people who have had to use the food banks around Cornwall, in Bude and Wadebridge and Bodmin. Even people who are just about getting by, they’re saying – I’m not sure how much longer I can last, because I’ve used up my savings now on energy bills, or on sky-high rent, or mortgage payments thanks to Liz Truss’ disastrous mini-budget.

“It’s really bread and butter issues, they’re not asking for really amazing things, they’re just asking to be able to feed their families and put fuel in their cars, and it sounds almost cliché to say it, but that’s literally what they are telling me.

“Then on the environmental side, obviously sewage dumping in Cornwall, because with Cornwall’s coastline it’s been disproportionately affected by this and there’s a really high awareness that the Tories voted in favour of dumping more sewage in the seas and the rivers. People on the doorstep are pretty disgusted by that as an issue in Cornwall, and that’s before you get to anything like climate change.”

RK – “I’m wondering what kind of support you are expecting from the new voters that have arrived on the scene since the last election? Either the young people who have just come to voting age, or the long-term Brits abroad who have now got their votes back? A couple of whom, I know, including myself, joined the Lib Dems because you were the party who wanted to rejoin, or to stay in. I’m just wondering what sort of view you’ve got about whether that will make any difference?”

Ben Maguire – “Do you mean in terms of Europe, or just generally how we target those voters?”

RK – “I suppose both. In the case of the long-term ex-pats, it would be because we’re badly affected by Brexit, and so they would be likely to vote for anybody who’s coming back in the EU direction and being strong on EU connections, but I meant in terms of numbers as well.”

Ben Maguire – “Just more generally on that group, it’s quite interesting because I think I mentioned that I worked for Dan Rogerson back in 2010 and 2015 – both quite different elections, one we won and one we lost. I do remember some young people definitely helping out on the campaign, and there were one or two who were quite engaged, and they were quite passionate about a whole variety of issues. This time, I’m really pleased to report that we’ve had a massive reaction from young people. I’m due to go in and speak to Callywith in Bodmin and Budehaven College in Bude, but we’ve actually had six students sign up to help the campaign and give as much time as they can around their studies, to really get involved with every part of the campaign. I’ve not seen that before in any other elections that I’ve been involved in, to be honest. When you speak to them – I’ve sat them down and had a coffee over the last week, or two – and I’ve never seen such passion and they’ve got such an amazing knowledge of all the issues, from climate change to affordable housing for young people. It’s quite incredible the level of engagement and it’s really shocked me because I joined Dan Rogerson’s campaign when I was eighteen, and I felt like a bit of a weirdo for doing it, because there weren’t many other young people like me doing that.

“I think these days, though, I would be the norm, because it’s incredible to see the level of engagement and as you rightly mentioned, Europe factors into that as well because a couple of them from Callywith were mentioning to me about Erasmus, as we were discussing earlier, and how disappointed they are that’s not an option anymore and also, just more generally, how they’re not able to live and work in Europe as easily as they would have done before. When they were younger, they would have seen that as an option for them, but now that has been taken away, so absolutely a massive issue. They are also very engaged, as I am, on green issues and fighting climate change. It makes me sick really, that it’s barely been mentioned by Conservative MPs. It’s such an urgent issue, and Cornwall, in particular, is going to be under water very soon, but we don’t seem to want to address it, we just push it under the carpet and hope it will go away.

“You also mentioned expats. Returning from Europe, did you mean?”

RK – “No, not returning from Europe. You didn’t have a vote if you had been away for more than fifteen years, and that vote has just been restored. So, anybody who’s been a UK resident, can now apply to have their voting rights restored and I don’t know how many it will be. I’ve got some people who say, ‘yes, I must immediately get on the register’ and others who say, ‘no, I’ve been away too long, it doesn’t affect me anymore’. So, I’ve no idea what sort of a number it might be. I have just managed to get proof of my UK address from fifty years ago, so now I’m just hoping that they get everything sorted in time for the next election, because I and many of my friends are very keen to try to do anything to try to get us back closer to Europe.”

Ben Maguire – “I appreciate that – and that’s an interesting point. I hadn’t quite realised all of that and I’m not sure of the numbers of ex-pat voters.”

[There was discussion about the numbers of ex-pat voters and general consensus was in the region of three million.]

RK – “It was said that a lot of people did vote leave, but everyone has noticed how dreadful it’s becoming, not being able to buy things from home, or travel easily. I think people were absolutely rocked by all these negative consequences that they didn’t realise were coming, they thought it was going to be – oh, jolly good, back to Blighty and get rid of all the people we don’t want – and I think a lot of them weren’t aware that it would also affect Brits in Europe very badly. That was why there was a lot of disappointment when suddenly the Lib Dems weren’t the party that was going to be the EU party, the ‘let’s get us back in’ party. I can understand where you’re coming from, but still, I agree with the others, it’s quite a disappointment.”

Ben Maguire – “Hopefully, I have managed to persuade you that I’m passionately pro-European, and if I’m elected as an MP, I’ll certainly take that stance in Parliament. I really don’t see this as one of the issues that I’ll have to fight my party on, because they are very, very pro-European as well. I think this election is a bit more about strategy, rather than about how we position certain messages. When we’re trying to win as many seats as we can – and I think we will – you’ve got to be quite strategic in your messaging and I think there was quite a scar in the party from 2019.

“I remember campaigning, even in North Cornwall, and you’d go into a house and they’d say, ‘Oh yes, you’re a nice person, the candidate seems really good and the Lib Dems have been really good for North Cornwall in the past’, so you would put them down as a lib Dem vote, then just as you’re going out they would say, ‘but we’ve got to get Brexit done!’ That was a big scar, I think, and you do learn from your experience. We could rerun that whole story again in 2024 and I suspect we’d end up with very few MPs and very little influence on all of this, whereas on the other hand, we could end up with upwards of fifty, or sixty MPs and we could really have quite a significant voice again on Europe. I personally think it was a mistake to run the campaign that we did in 2019, for those reasons that I mentioned of alienating people, and actually putting them off being pro-European as well.

“I really did disagree with the approach to cancel Brexit, and I think that possibly we swung back a bit the other way as a reaction. As I say, we do desperately need pro-European MPs in Westminster and I’ll be one of them, if I’m elected, but if I start going around the doorsteps in North Cornwall saying, ‘once I’m elected I’m going to bring us straight back into Europe, and there’s nothing you can do about it, I’m going to ignore the referendum’, I think that would go down like a lead balloon. So, there’s definitely a balance to get and as I said, you’ve got to represent people as well, and take their views in the round, but that’s not to say that I wouldn’t be very, very pro-European, as we’ve covered.”

HF – “Well, thanks very much for coming along, Ben and you might like to consider coming along to our event on 23 March where we have Molly Scott Cato speaking. She was the only Green MEP and is now Vice Chair of the European Movement, so you might find it interesting.”

Ben Maguire – “Thank you, yes, that sounds good. I have one other question as well, if I may? Do you as a group endorse MPs, or ask your members to help pro-EU MPs?”

HF – “In the 2019 election we endorsed candidates who supported rejoin. So, we supported Lib Dem and Green, and we had quite a lot of campaigning around that. Many of the Lib Dem candidates decided that was a bit too overly European for them and they didn’t have anything to do with us. One or two did, but we did lots of campaigning around that time. We had to be very careful to be as fair as we could – we’d support the candidates who did support Remain – but not tread on too many toes.”

Ben Maguire – “Yes, I appreciate that, it’s a fine line, isn’t it?”

HF – “We’ve heard from two Labour PPCs who are equally claiming European credentials, and again they are struggling against a party that doesn’t want to know, really. It’s a bit difficult.”

Ben Maguire – “Yes, hopefully the Lib Dems are still ahead of Labour on that front.”

HF – “We all hope so! We’ve got enough Lib Dems here that dearly want it to be the case.”

Ben Maguire – “Definitely! Well, thanks very much for having me – it was great to meet you all and good luck with your campaigning.”

We had a really interesting discussion with Ben and he was very open about both his personal opinions and his views on Lib Dem policy. If you would like to know more about Liberal Democrat policy, their current plans and values can be accessed here.

Next month, we’re hoping to be speaking to Ian Flindall, Green Party PPC for St Ives, and we will be trying to get other representatives for future months. If there is a particular person that you would like us to approach, please do let us know here.