By Bev Haigh-Jones
The time we spent with Robin kept to the usual format, a short statement from Robin himself regarding his views, followed by a Q&A session.
Robin sits in the House of Lords representing the Lib Dems, so obviously he isn’t standing as a candidate, but if you wish to know more about the Cornish Liberal Democrat Party and their new manifesto, you can find more here.
Chair – Welcome Robin and thanks for joining us. As I mentioned in my message, we’ve been hearing from prospective candidates and politicians in Cornwall, from various parties, and we have invited lots of MPs as well, but they have never come, funnily enough.
What we’re interested in is our road to rejoin, and what we’ve done in the past is that whatever is said during the meeting is transcribed into an article, and then published in our newsletter – so over to you. It would be nice if you could explain a little of your view from the Lords as to where we are now, and whether there is a road to rejoin, and then I’m sure we can generate some questions.
Robin Teverson – I am, of course, in the House of Lords and I’m a member of the UK European Union Parliamentary Assembly as well, which was set up under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Actually, the last meeting got cancelled. They’re usually half-yearly, either side of the Channel, but it was cancelled because of the Rwanda vote.
In terms of where we are at the moment – and tell me if I’m going off in the wrong direction – but there’s no doubt that, imperfect as it might have been, since the Windsor Framework has been agreed the whole thing has got hugely better. I’ll just do a bit of background and then we’ll look at the future.
At the first one of the Assembly meetings, which was still in the Boris Johnson administration, it was over in Brussels and the UK Ministers were absolutely, diabolically awful, in terms of being clearly hostile to the European Union. I’m pleased to say that’s gone now, and we’re in this sort of neutral lacuna where nobody talks about Brexit – well some of us do, but generally we don’t in the Lords. So, in the House of Lords there is little discussion about it, although it has a very competent European Union Select Committee that tries to push forward all of that side.
Obviously, we’re in a general election at the moment, which is the key thing, and I’m a Liberal Democrat and I’m pretty much down the line on where the Lib Dems stand. I’d rather that we said a little bit more about Brexit than has been said, but I’m sure that in the manifesto when it comes out in one or two weeks, then it will be there, but the outline is based on the fact that we still have to wait a while before there will be real momentum towards actually opening up this debate fully and nationally again. It will seep out, and we should encourage it to do so, but obviously during an election it isn’t a number one issue, and, unfortunately, when we’re in the marketplace of votes, that’s not where it counts. I also think there’s disappointment generally, among a lot of the electorate, that it’s not mentioned at all.
So, in terms of Lib Dems, what we’re saying is that there need to be steps towards it, so Erasmus is something that we should get involved in. I haven’t caught up with how Horizon is doing, but obviously that’s supposed to be progressing now, though I think it’s fairly slow, but we’d go through those things. Then next would be a veterinary agreement, which just makes things so much easier, not just in terms of Northern Ireland, but in trade for small businesses and everybody else, in terms of all the phytosanitary stuff. This would then require our standards to be driven by Brussels standards again, which is something that is necessary in that area in terms of freeing up and improving trade. I think also, realistically, I don’t think we, as a party, have talked about the changes to the trade and cooperation agreement (TCA) when the first reassessment of it comes up, and we’ve got to sort our fisheries and energy at that time. I wish it were the case in the way that Labour would look at it that there could be a fairly major negotiation there, but I don’t think there will be. I think the European Union will come back to the fact that we, the UK, can’t cherry-pick, so there will be limited scope for significant changes to the agreement. I don’t think there would be appetite from Brussels for that, but hopefully there are things that could happen, like freedom of movement on the cultural side a lot more, but we’ll see. Of course they’ve offered that for younger people, but it was rejected by the government, but we would want to see that.
I think the other area, which is not directly an EU thing, but is partly related is to do with defence. Clearly, with the whole Ukranian situation and everything else, and the potential of another Trump administration, there’s a huge need for either the pillar of NATO, or as in Lib Dem policy, much greater cooperation with the EU and NATO. That’s going to be really important given that the Ukraine war isn’t going to finish any time soon.
The next stage is then to go on and we would want to rejoin the single market, and once you’ve joined the single market, then you might as well be at the table and help make the decisions. So that’s it, the Lib Dems see it as a four-step pathway back to EU membership, but as we’ve seen in Scotland, referenda, badly judged, are hugely divisive matters, I think, for very pro-European people like me, let alone all the feelings over in Brussels, and it’s going to take a while to get to that stage. The risk is that the EU evolves further and in areas where we would like to have influence, we would have no influence, so there are all sorts of dangers in what might happen the other side of the channel.
That’s a quick description of things – does that help?
Chair – It does, Robin, thank you. We’re all convinced that some time we are going to be rejoining, and it’s difficult because we would want to put a time on this. What do you think – twenty years?
Robin Teverson – Well, I suspect it depends on what happens, and who’s in where. Let’s say if Labour gets into government and serves four years, then they call another election and the Conservatives are still in relative chaos, Labour then gets re-elected and is probably feeling a lot more secure about everything, it’s not impossible that a decision to go back into the single market is something we might do. Once we’re in the single market, as we all know, there’s no point in not being in the community itself, because otherwise you’re a rule taker, without being a decision maker. Plus, if you’re in, you get decisions over a lot of other stuff as well. So I think that there is a scenario that says it could be within ten years, but by twenty years, you don’t even know what the EU is going to be looking like. Of course, there’s the European political community on defence and other issues, and maybe we’ll find that a help as well.
Chair – Right, thank you – questions people?
AH – The Labour Party have been talking about some sort of scheme for musicians, which, as I understand it, the EU offered at the time that they were sorting out the TCA, and our wonderful government rejected it. Do you think that it’s possible that we are going to be able to resurrect that idea, and at least get musicians and roadies and people like that back on the road, as it were?
Robin Teverson – I think that probably is possible. It was one of the big pushes and themes of the UK EU Parliamentary Assembly. It was pushed particularly by one of the Baronesses, and from the European Parliament side there was a big plus on that, so if it could be painted as a cultural thing, rather than a cherry-picking thing, then if you can continue the goodwill you might manage to do that, but it is a cherry-picking issue on the Barnier scale. Barnier is obviously no longer there, but I don’t think it’s going to be a walkover; it might just be something that gets through. Maybe! But you’re right, we rejected it during the TCA negotiations and that’s what they will likely quote back at us.
CB – You probably know that we had a meeting a little while back with Molly Scott Cato, and one of the things that she talked about, which interested me particularly, was the whole business of divergence of standards, whether it’s in employment law, or labelling of products, and so on. In looking into that and thinking about it, it’s completely clear that the present government is trying, wherever possible, to do things, or persuade parts of industry and commerce to do things, that would not be compatible with being in the single market. In other words, they are making it difficult to go back in quickly and already, it seems, if suddenly we all said, right, let’s go back into the EU, we couldn’t do it next week, it would need a period of adjustment and negotiation.
In my world in business, the government have been trying to persuade vineyards in the UK to bottle wine in pint bottles, for God’s sake! Apart from the fact that none of the bottle manufacturers make pint wine bottles, I mean they’re just not available. There’s the labelling of wine and so on as well, they’re actually trying to get us to do different things, and it seems to be all about deliberately creating obstacles and causing more divergence, to make it more and more difficult to go back in. I wonder what comments you have got on that? Is that going to be, as the years go by, a bigger and bigger problem?
Robin Teverson – Well, in a word, yes, it will be. That was particularly the Rees Mogg agenda, especially when he was Business Secretary, it was all around that and the EU Retained Law Bill, which, thank God, bad though it was when it became an Act, was nothing like as bad as it was going to be. It was an insane, kamikaze piece of legislation, leaving all sorts of legal uncertainty. Yes, you’re right, as divergence takes place, that will make things more and more difficult, but I think if there is a change of government, then the gratuitous changes won’t happen to the same degree.
Of course, even under this present government there’s been all sorts of U-turns, not just on the Retained EU Law Bill, but also in terms of the UK Mark, which has died, and there’s all the efforts on UK Reach (chemical regulations), which was going to cost UK industry, I think it was £10bn, and even the government agreed that was the figure and now, I suspect, what will happen under the radar, because it’s a complex area that the tabloids aren’t going to be interested in, is that any sane government will stop major divergence there. I would have thought that we will find a way, somehow, of staying in sync with EU Reach, so that we don’t cut off our own trade. It is a hugely important area.
The other area where I think something will happen at some stage, is on phytosanitary arrangements, the veterinary stuff, where I suspect there will be an agreement to stop divergence. However, unless we actually mirror changes in EU regulations and directives, then that divergence will gradually happen. I suspect the effect of it will be a creep, rather than a rush if we have a change of government.
EB – I just wanted to know if you knew the latest on settled status, and the fact that EU citizens who are resident in the UK still don’t have a physical document. It’s creating all sorts of regular problems, at airports, getting loans and renting property. I know that the 3Million are currently campaigning to get the government to give people a QR code, which would be a form of physical document that they could keep, and show when needed. Currently an estate agent, or landlord has to go through the website at the same time as the EU citizen. The EU citizens provide the code and the landlord then checks that code, and, as we know, the website just constantly has problems. It’s very, very difficult and creates all sorts of problems for people. I know this is the hostile environment from the succession of Conservative governments there has been, to do with immigration. Do you know if there are any changes coming?
Robin Teverson – I know the issue very much, but I don’t think there has been any progress on it. It’s completely a UK decision, obviously, and the government hasn’t shown any interest in changing it. Will it happen with a change of government? I’m not sure that it will be a high priority. The Home Office is pretty difficult to manage, and also, I don’t know that I hear the EU particularly fighting that corner. I may be wrong on that, but I think they see that as a purely UK decision. What I would hope is, that with the rather quicker normalisation of relations, maybe that’s something. You see, to me, when it comes to the assessment of the TCA in just over a year, then to me what should happen is the UK, if it’s a Labour government, will want quite a bit of stuff there and what the EU should do is say, okay, we might move on a couple of things, like movement of cultural people to and fro, but come on UK, make it easier for our citizens in this area. They should use a bit of leverage on their side to get that sorted out, and then, if you like, it’s not so politically dangerous for this side as well. Basically, we should just get on and do it.
EB – So, you can speak for the Liberal Democrats I imagine?
Robin Teverson – Well, my colleagues in the House of Lords, certainly, but I can’t speak for the House of Commons, but everyone would say that should be the case, I’m sure, but I don’t think you will find it in the manifesto document. Certainly colleagues of mine that have Europe in their portfolio have pushed strongly on this in the past.
RK – I’m interested in your feeling about the balance of opinion in the EU about whether they actually want us back at all, or are there voices saying “why on earth?”
Robin Teverson – Well, of course, Barnier always said, and still says although he’s not a player, as he was, that we would always be welcome back, and that’s true of a number of people in the European Parliament, and others. What is absolutely clear, though, and I think is realistic, is that there would have to be a general, political consensus primarily, in some way too, that we go back. It’s got to be broader than just one of the two parties, and that’s going to be the difficulty, but who knows what’s going to happen to the right of the politics in this country? If there was a sensible centre right that decided to go along that route, then yes, I think Europe would want us back, but what they don’t want is us deciding ten years later to get out again. I’m not sure how anyone could give that assurance sufficiently, but I suppose you would look at that from the general view and I guess you would have to have a referendum again, and it would have to be a decisive referendum.
HF – When we have had this discussion before, about whether we would need a referendum, other people have said that it just needs a party coming into power that has that as its policy.
Robin Teverson – You can do that, but of course, as we’ve seen, a government can get an 80-seat majority in this country with only forty percent of the vote. On that basis it doesn’t work, so I think that to go back in you would need to have a referendum, because you would have to prove to the people who are still Euro sceptics that it’s the way that the majority of the population want to go. I don’t see that you can get out of that, to be honest. But, yeah, constitutionally, you can go and agree treaties, and you don’t even need to go to parliament to agree treaties. You have to consult them these days, they get forty days in the Commons to consider it, then if they don’t like it, it gets postponed, but that’s the way the British constitution works, unfortunately. Not that I’m suggesting that any government would go and sign a treaty with the European Union without any parliamentary authority.
Chair – Thank you Robin, that was really interesting, and refreshing to have a view from a different perspective from those we normally come across, and to have your views on rejoining.
Robin Teverson – Can I just say, I’m a member of the European Movement myself, obviously, and I just thank you for the work you are doing – you keep the flag flying, which is a really important thing, and I always remember that I cried after that referendum result and I was angry, but I was nothing like as angry as my children were! People have seen their rights just taken away from them, by people who had agendas, or didn’t really know necessarily what they were voting about.
Chair – The anger hasn’t gone away in many places, and we’re still banging on. We have Dominic Grieve coming to speak to us on 22 June, and it’s nice to have someone who was in the Tory Party, so is in a slightly different position in politics from other speakers, really. Probably around every fortnight, or so, we have a stall somewhere in Cornwall and we are still signing people up to our website and our Facebook pages, plus of late, there has been a resurgence in interest, really, which is very pleasing.
Well, I’m sure everyone will want to join me in saying thank you very much for joining us this evening.
It was very interesting to get a different perspective on UK politics from a member of the House of Lords, and we are very grateful to Robin for taking the time to talk to us.
We are hoping to continue with this series of Q&As, so if you have someone that you would like us to approach with an invitation – perhaps a new MP in your constituency – do please let us know and we will see what we can do. You can contact us here.
